BB is terrible because quills are physical damage so they do almost no damage to PL and there is no other way for you to clear illusions either. Also he just burns all your mana away and BB without mana is just useless.
Other than obvious counters like Ember, you need to push early and go as 5 because the hero isn't that good at teamfight and especially not at the early game.
PA is also terrible against PL because 50% miss doesn't really matter when there are 1 million (with diffusal) PL hitting. He will likely force the PA to buy Fury which bogs PA down to a farming game.
Kunkka has powerful utility but he can't fight a DPS battle with PL in late. PL can instantly create illus after Kunkka cleaves apart his first wave. PL can even dodge X Return with good Doppelganger timing.
Yes, that too. The only way for Kunkka to match up against PL is build glass cannon which,given how player skill has been improved over the years, gets shat on very easily.
@Soultrap
let me see. ur question provokes me a lot. U ask why i lost a normal skill, unranked match as ember vs pl? We fed them pretty good and as u can understand: if u feed, u will lose games. if pl gets ahead, ember cannot do much then. does it matter though in terms of theorizing or are you just tryin to discredit me w linking that game? ember is still one of the best counters vs pl.
also, this patch gyro is pretty strong vs pl.
@hushhush
I just look for practical confirmation. Pure theory-crafting leads nowhere.
Gyro can't do anything when his flak is on cooldown. PL needs to dodge it and reengage few seconds later.
P.S. Can't hold myself away from theory-crafting. =)
What about Kunkka with Octarine Core? If tidebringer hits every 3 seconds, PL can't do much about it, right?
yes ember ulti dodges rupture dmg
edit: gyro used to be good vs pl because his illusions were different. now its pretty much always 10 illusions in fights.
meepo works fine vs pl. so does lesh.
Countering PL is pretty easy. I'll try to list all the heroes who counter him
Alchemist: He can farm way faster than PL and get a Battlefury and Mjolnir, get six slotted and end game.
Axe: Good counter mid game and early game. Viable late game too if he gets a call on the real one and your team is there to burst him down.
Dragon Knight: Destroys Pl so hard at every stage of the game.
Earthshaker: Obvious counter.
Ember Spirit: Decent counter, can keep him at bay.
Jugg: Get a Bf and Mjolnir and bkb and you're good to go.
LC: Decent counter. Her nuke clears illusions and can ult him but won't be able to manfight him, team is needed.
Magnus: Get a decent RP and you can kill him.
Medusa: Her ult instantly destroys illusions, get a bkb on her and split shot does its work.
Morphling: Use replicate and create your own PL army. Spot the real one, shotgun him.
Spectre: A tanky Spec with Radiance can easily take on a PL and more.
Sven: Eats PL for breakfast.
Tiny: With Aghs and a couple of items can easily take on PL
Earthshaker and Ember Spirit are the safest choices.
IMHO, Dragon Knight usually gets ignored because he needs to be lvl16 but he is a great counter since he deals exact same damage to illusions and hero itself. You don't get concerned by illusions. Also great damage reduction(possible 90-95 damage reduction in late-game) with Breathe Fire is also very useful since PL mostly builds base damage.
Sven and Tiny are great also. And Gyrocopter. Ne explanation needed for Sven and Tiny. But Gyro can hold his ground against PL even in late-game.
I don't think Medusa is a decent counter. It's a coin toss. No middle ground. PL with Diffusal can be too much for Gorgon to handle and Gorgon can be too much for PL with her ulti. Tho, like I said in my first post on the thread, PL-Spectre-Medusa-Void, these are all on their own level.
As for items, Mjollnir counters better than Battlefury. But both are useful, surely.
^ DK usually gets levels at the same pace or even faster than a PL so that won't be a problem, all he needs is Lvl 11 and breathe fire and he can fight from then on. Idk about gyro, once you use Flak Cannon you're done. If you don't kill PL during that duration, you lose.
As for Dusa, I mentioned Bkb to counter diffusal. Dusa with BKB, Manta, Skadi, MKB, Mjlonir can easily kill PL.
Still you need to kill PL before the Avatar and ultimate runs out, it's not an easy task.
Medusa with BKB-Manta-Skadi-MKB-Mjollnir will probably face Manta-Skadi-Heart-Butterfly-Diffusal2 PL. This PL has 33 armor and 3.6k hp. So Medusa needs to deal nearly 11k damage before BKB and ultimate runs out.
And we are talking about super-late game builds. PL farms and get kills easier than Medusa. So, PL will probably ahead of Gorgon as for networth, and can torture her throughout the game. PL just needs Diffusal to kill Dusa and Medusa needs tons of items to hold herself against PL. That's why Medusa isn't a great counter against PL.
Well you don't have to use BkB and ult at the same time, use BKB first and clear a couple of waves of illusions and then use ult, her W is also useful here.
Dusa farms equally well because she can clear creep waves faster but you're right about kills. In the midgame, her ult will be enough to deal with PL since he's squishy early on and she's a good Rapier carrier if damage is ever a problem. So I still think that Dusa is a good counter to him.
Also, u can dodge medusa ulti easily with the new pl, if u time doppelganger right. medusa is food for pl, in my opinion.
i also think leshrac, gyro etc. are on a clock if they want to counter pl. late game i dont think they can.
shaker is always a good counter, but an intelligent bkb usage by pl can fuck him too. antimage come comes online faster and with bf, manta and basher can fuck pl till the start of late game. then pl rapes him.
Pl also stays ahead of sven because sven needs to spend a lot of gold on mobility and bkb before he starts making damage, plus he's kited easily even then if he faces pl alone. However, six slotted sven eats pl for breakfast.
Ember is a decent counter, but of course you have to be very elusive as ember.
Tiny is pretty good, perhaps better than sven when six slotted.
pa is shit against pl. pl would rape her even without mkb unless she's overleveld and overfarmed
Chhatru;
I know you meant Gorgon doesn't have to use BKB and ulti at the same time. And with given 6 slotted heroes, Dusa will still have problem to deal that much damage. Skadi and Heart, having
But you are way too wrong about farming. With Quelling Blade and Wraith Band, PL deals 99-100 damage to creeps from the start. And Medusa with Wraith Band deals 56 damage. PL is far stronger than Gorgon in laning phase. Can farm up faster and way easier. And it'll lead to a bigger mid-game netwroth difference. Also, Medusa is more squishy than PL. And your item build is questionable. I know, Medusa is a good Rapier carrier but you are talking about mid-game build and include Rapier. No sense in that.
btw silveredge destroys his passive until he doppelgangers, i think - makes him ez to focus for lock downs in manfights. probably only works in <4k though.
@Odinn21
Dusa doesn't really suffer that much in laning phase since her W will keep her mana high which is good for her tankiness and also is ranged so is less prone to harass than a PL but I see your point, PL does seem to have an advantage midgame.
As for the item build, I meant the Rapier will come in during late game replacing Manta. My ideal item build to deal with a PL would be BKB-Skadi-MKB-BoT-Mjolnir-Rapier.
@hushhush I never understood the use of Silver Edge on a PL. I mean sure it disables his passive preventing him from creating illusions but he can instantly use Doppleganger and remove all debuffs. Can anyone explain?
the only carry I strugled against as PL was Sven. Earth Shaker can be annoying but is quite easy to dodge if you utilize your Manta illusions well. (assuming you're an idiot like me and refuse to waste a Slot with bkb)
@soultrap
leshrac bursts pl down untill he gets bkb, but even with bkb pl cant kill leshrac. once bkb time ends, leshrac wrecks pl.
timbersaw is a good counter to pl at any point of the game unless hes terribly underfarmed and pl is snowballing, believe me ^_^
also if you are looking for supps, consider AA - ice blust is not dodgeable and it always marks the real pl, which solves one of the main problems you carry might have when fighting with pl - finding the real one.
^^That why you buy euls and put blood rite when they fall.
What are the best counters to PL? The only hero I can think about is Bristleback. What else?
Bristleback is a terrible hero against PL, what are you talking about?
leshrac, timbersaw, sven, pa
Please explain why BB is bad and name a good counter. I really don't know what to pick when I see PL in opposing team.
@TripleSteal-
Leshrac may work until PL gets BKB or becomes too fat with Skadi+Heart. Same for Timber.
IDK about Sven, probably PL can kite Sven...
PA sounds good, I think. Thats it?
BB is terrible because quills are physical damage so they do almost no damage to PL and there is no other way for you to clear illusions either. Also he just burns all your mana away and BB without mana is just useless.
Other than obvious counters like Ember, you need to push early and go as 5 because the hero isn't that good at teamfight and especially not at the early game.
es and es. (not the earth spirit though)
So what you gonna do as Ember when PLs illusions hitting you?
@hushhush
Why you lost it as Ember vs PL?
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1686532530
zip out with remnant Xd
@memecrafter
Good. =)
That makes any hero with force staff about as good as Ember. =)
PA is also terrible against PL because 50% miss doesn't really matter when there are 1 million (with diffusal) PL hitting. He will likely force the PA to buy Fury which bogs PA down to a farming game.
What about Kunkka?
Kunkka has powerful utility but he can't fight a DPS battle with PL in late. PL can instantly create illus after Kunkka cleaves apart his first wave. PL can even dodge X Return with good Doppelganger timing.
Isn't kunkka pretty bad this patch though? Even attacker gave up on that hero. PL can also use doppel to dodge boat or X easily.
Yes, that too. The only way for Kunkka to match up against PL is build glass cannon which,given how player skill has been improved over the years, gets shat on very easily.
So, we need carry with strong disable... It's Void!
Enigma should be really good too.
es and axe pretty good vs pl
lesh is decent too
@Soultrap
let me see. ur question provokes me a lot. U ask why i lost a normal skill, unranked match as ember vs pl? We fed them pretty good and as u can understand: if u feed, u will lose games. if pl gets ahead, ember cannot do much then. does it matter though in terms of theorizing or are you just tryin to discredit me w linking that game? ember is still one of the best counters vs pl.
also, this patch gyro is pretty strong vs pl.
@hushhush
I just look for practical confirmation. Pure theory-crafting leads nowhere.
Gyro can't do anything when his flak is on cooldown. PL needs to dodge it and reengage few seconds later.
P.S. Can't hold myself away from theory-crafting. =)
What about Kunkka with Octarine Core? If tidebringer hits every 3 seconds, PL can't do much about it, right?
yes ember ulti dodges rupture dmg
edit: gyro used to be good vs pl because his illusions were different. now its pretty much always 10 illusions in fights.
meepo works fine vs pl. so does lesh.
i thought this was common knowledge
In the order of my preference of heroes to counter PL: Ember, Leshrac, Earthshaker, Tiny, Magnus, Storm with shivas and orchid is pretty good too.
Ok, thank you all.
So, the only support who can counter PL is Earthshaker. My last attempt to counter PL that way failed up miserably.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1526953089
Probably I just can't play this hero... *sigh*
Sand King, Dark Seer, Tide Hunter also counter him I just don't like playing those heroes. Axe and Puck also probably pretty good.
I forgot Crystal Maiden of course, her ulti pretty good if you can survive casting it. But realistically he'll just doppleganger out if not disabled.
well i'm trying it on my smurf, 2 easy wins so far against shaker and ember
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1695110222
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1700620198
keep in mind this is a 5k mmr account so avg mmr is around 4.7 in most games cuz brazil sucks
fy fangay KappaPride
hes so handsome i cant hold myself
@sano
I was already afraid of reality where you can't counter PL. After your post I feel like mine PL-phobia getting worse...
Just tell your teammates to pick strong heroes like Leshrac/Bloodseeker/Spirit Breaker/Undying/Tusk
Countering PL is pretty easy. I'll try to list all the heroes who counter him
Alchemist: He can farm way faster than PL and get a Battlefury and Mjolnir, get six slotted and end game.
Axe: Good counter mid game and early game. Viable late game too if he gets a call on the real one and your team is there to burst him down.
Dragon Knight: Destroys Pl so hard at every stage of the game.
Earthshaker: Obvious counter.
Ember Spirit: Decent counter, can keep him at bay.
Jugg: Get a Bf and Mjolnir and bkb and you're good to go.
LC: Decent counter. Her nuke clears illusions and can ult him but won't be able to manfight him, team is needed.
Magnus: Get a decent RP and you can kill him.
Medusa: Her ult instantly destroys illusions, get a bkb on her and split shot does its work.
Morphling: Use replicate and create your own PL army. Spot the real one, shotgun him.
Spectre: A tanky Spec with Radiance can easily take on a PL and more.
Sven: Eats PL for breakfast.
Tiny: With Aghs and a couple of items can easily take on PL
Earthshaker and Ember Spirit are the safest choices.
IMHO, Dragon Knight usually gets ignored because he needs to be lvl16 but he is a great counter since he deals exact same damage to illusions and hero itself. You don't get concerned by illusions. Also great damage reduction(possible 90-95 damage reduction in late-game) with Breathe Fire is also very useful since PL mostly builds base damage.
Sven and Tiny are great also. And Gyrocopter. Ne explanation needed for Sven and Tiny. But Gyro can hold his ground against PL even in late-game.
I don't think Medusa is a decent counter. It's a coin toss. No middle ground. PL with Diffusal can be too much for Gorgon to handle and Gorgon can be too much for PL with her ulti. Tho, like I said in my first post on the thread, PL-Spectre-Medusa-Void, these are all on their own level.
As for items, Mjollnir counters better than Battlefury. But both are useful, surely.
^ DK usually gets levels at the same pace or even faster than a PL so that won't be a problem, all he needs is Lvl 11 and breathe fire and he can fight from then on. Idk about gyro, once you use Flak Cannon you're done. If you don't kill PL during that duration, you lose.
As for Dusa, I mentioned Bkb to counter diffusal. Dusa with BKB, Manta, Skadi, MKB, Mjlonir can easily kill PL.
From what I saw in TI gyro was really good at shutting down PL early, but if game went too late PL would just destroy him.
Still you need to kill PL before the Avatar and ultimate runs out, it's not an easy task.
Medusa with BKB-Manta-Skadi-MKB-Mjollnir will probably face Manta-Skadi-Heart-Butterfly-Diffusal2 PL. This PL has 33 armor and 3.6k hp. So Medusa needs to deal nearly 11k damage before BKB and ultimate runs out.
And we are talking about super-late game builds. PL farms and get kills easier than Medusa. So, PL will probably ahead of Gorgon as for networth, and can torture her throughout the game. PL just needs Diffusal to kill Dusa and Medusa needs tons of items to hold herself against PL. That's why Medusa isn't a great counter against PL.
Well you don't have to use BkB and ult at the same time, use BKB first and clear a couple of waves of illusions and then use ult, her W is also useful here.
Dusa farms equally well because she can clear creep waves faster but you're right about kills. In the midgame, her ult will be enough to deal with PL since he's squishy early on and she's a good Rapier carrier if damage is ever a problem. So I still think that Dusa is a good counter to him.
Also, u can dodge medusa ulti easily with the new pl, if u time doppelganger right. medusa is food for pl, in my opinion.
i also think leshrac, gyro etc. are on a clock if they want to counter pl. late game i dont think they can.
shaker is always a good counter, but an intelligent bkb usage by pl can fuck him too. antimage come comes online faster and with bf, manta and basher can fuck pl till the start of late game. then pl rapes him.
Pl also stays ahead of sven because sven needs to spend a lot of gold on mobility and bkb before he starts making damage, plus he's kited easily even then if he faces pl alone. However, six slotted sven eats pl for breakfast.
Ember is a decent counter, but of course you have to be very elusive as ember.
Tiny is pretty good, perhaps better than sven when six slotted.
pa is shit against pl. pl would rape her even without mkb unless she's overleveld and overfarmed
Chhatru;
I know you meant Gorgon doesn't have to use BKB and ulti at the same time. And with given 6 slotted heroes, Dusa will still have problem to deal that much damage. Skadi and Heart, having
But you are way too wrong about farming. With Quelling Blade and Wraith Band, PL deals 99-100 damage to creeps from the start. And Medusa with Wraith Band deals 56 damage. PL is far stronger than Gorgon in laning phase. Can farm up faster and way easier. And it'll lead to a bigger mid-game netwroth difference. Also, Medusa is more squishy than PL. And your item build is questionable. I know, Medusa is a good Rapier carrier but you are talking about mid-game build and include Rapier. No sense in that.
btw silveredge destroys his passive until he doppelgangers, i think - makes him ez to focus for lock downs in manfights. probably only works in <4k though.
@Odinn21
Dusa doesn't really suffer that much in laning phase since her W will keep her mana high which is good for her tankiness and also is ranged so is less prone to harass than a PL but I see your point, PL does seem to have an advantage midgame.
As for the item build, I meant the Rapier will come in during late game replacing Manta. My ideal item build to deal with a PL would be BKB-Skadi-MKB-BoT-Mjolnir-Rapier.
@hushhush I never understood the use of Silver Edge on a PL. I mean sure it disables his passive preventing him from creating illusions but he can instantly use Doppleganger and remove all debuffs. Can anyone explain?
He can also use his diffusal blade. Not really the item to counter him with.
many heroes can flash farm, but how many can actually batman farm??????????
nightstalker of course.
the only carry I strugled against as PL was Sven. Earth Shaker can be annoying but is quite easy to dodge if you utilize your Manta illusions well. (assuming you're an idiot like me and refuse to waste a Slot with bkb)
@soultrap
leshrac bursts pl down untill he gets bkb, but even with bkb pl cant kill leshrac. once bkb time ends, leshrac wrecks pl.
timbersaw is a good counter to pl at any point of the game unless hes terribly underfarmed and pl is snowballing, believe me ^_^
also if you are looking for supps, consider AA - ice blust is not dodgeable and it always marks the real pl, which solves one of the main problems you carry might have when fighting with pl - finding the real one.
^ timber kills the lancer. pretty much on of the few heroes I'd never pick PL into.
Buy a veil and win ggwp