General DiscussionWhats with the Vanguard on Spectre?

you cant type "shut up"?

i heard "stfu" is a banned term, too, but not for me, n1

you cant (atleat i couldnt).. ive got "contains offensive language or a banned term" warning

"stfu" kappa

i get this notification for bigger starting with N, and thats apparently the one-and-only word i cant use. #HiddenElitism

on topic: vg is kinda situational and you get it for early tankiness, but if you can get radiance that early, you shall always go for it over vg or w/e; just get pt over phase instead.

also dont go for HoT if you have skadi, its better to invest in ur movespeed and get manta, or in ur dmg with butter, which also gives u evasion. 2 core sustain items are unnecesary.

yea

they are all dumb theres no way vanguard was the item for that game

The only thing you need to ask yourself as spectre is "what is the fastest way to get radiance"

If you're getting free farm in lane and kills why delay it with other items?

vanguard is great if you need to get farm from your ulti or the jungle but otherwise you're just delaying your radiance by 5mins.

@Triplesteal are you saying Skadi is a sustain item because creeps won't hit you so you who have zero trouble farming? Maybe noob question :x

Also testing "stfu"

@orioN
skadi is a sustain item because it gives you HP

it does but against omni+blink timber combo it still felt rather squishy with just something over 2k hp

the biggest counter to timber is movespeed and dmg, not the amount of hp u have.
also i would suggest to get diffusal against omni, even if it is 3rd or 4th slot, it is still viable.

If you are farming well enough to get a 14 min radiance, then do it. You can always get the tanky component later.

If however you might get killed at 8 min, 10 min, 12 min, 14 min... etc because you did not get Vangaurd so you die too easily then you have to get it first. Or if you can't farm because you are trying to avoid being killed... then you have to get tanky.

First item diffusal on spectre if you are against Omni... often its better to get diffusal before radiance if you are against a lot of INT heroes.

I like to just get the Vit booster, then try for radiance. If it goes well, I'll finish the radiance and later make heart. If it goes badly, I'll finish the vangaurd - then radiance or diffusal as the game requires.

First - people in your bracket (i asume you're high 3k or sth like that) are fuckin dumb. They have no clue how to play Dota, what items to buy in certain situations or how to fuckin win game in the easiest way, so just mute everyone if they're too "smart" or offensive and play your own game. They will stay at that shitty mmr and you will rise. Just trust in yourself and fuck off people.

when you get early kills its the perfect decision to go radiance. however, even though you are going really well in early game, maxing dispersion at level 7 and going for tanky build early gives you significant advantage as well. like getting vg, then bm, with max level dispersion, deals huge damage in combat. also when you are tanky in early game it kinda demotivates the enemy as well.

i, for example, was a fast-radiance player until mid 2014s but then i decided to change my playstyle and came up with the early tanky build. played 7 games with this ideology and lost only once. my average kda from these games are 7.20 which is noice.

i just don't get the logic behind maxing dispersion and going tanky early game.

i'm sure i'm missing something but it just seems wasteful - why isn't it better to build some cheap tank and max desolate/dagger?

i understand the need to build some stuff before radiance to either help survive and/or secure kill gold but dispersion just seems so meh with your early hp compared to the damage of desolate.

its clearly worked for you though and i am less than a scrub so idk though :)

level 4 dispersion is like a vit booster whereas level 4 desolate does almost as much damage as an abyssal blade (minus the active +stun chance ofc) just seems like much better value for money to go desolate and buy tank if it is wanted.

The trade is not dispersion instead of desolate. It's disperion instead of spectral dagger, which sucks as a nuke anyway. You can have both dispersion and desolate maxed by level 10. Just get one value point in dagger.

Maxing dispersion and getting vangaurd + bmail works well if the enemy can be baited into trying to kill spectre and failing.

It also allows you to fight earlier. If you recognize that desolate and dispersion makes spectre a threat even without any dmg items then you willl understand how this can work. I've often finished off escapeing enemies on a tower dive simply by walking after them and letting dispersion from the tower hits kill them.

I think of vanguard-bmail start as a backup plan for when my team feeds early. Loss of map control can make farming radiance very difficult and lack of opportunities to attack gank targets makes diffusal much less useful.

Looking back I only used it in 3 games and lost all 3. But they were absurdly one sided games that were going to be lost no matter what like this one.

https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1501364608
My team fed like crazy early and so only high risk plays where I am likely to die had any chance to turn it. My "support" visage basically walked out and fed 7 times in a row then abandoned. The other lanes all lost badly also. The score was 18 to ZERO by 13:40 min.

I still think this build has the potential for comeback options later in a difficult game thats not quite so absurdly one sided.

Mmm a naked radiance on spec is weak, i dont like tanky builds on her by any means, but early game drums, or vg, or urn+aquila are the way to go i think.

Based on your match, Vanguard was a shitty suggestion either way. The only severe right clicks were from BS and SF who have high early output anyway. Drums might have been a safer bet there, but if you could go for a 14 min radiance, DO IT. JUST DO IT.

As a side note, generally Dispersion is better early to allow you to farm harder. Since you didn't go Phase/Urn before Radiance, Desolate really doesn't help your gold income early. Spectral Dagger might have give you similar damage returns for single targets as well as AOE creep damage and mobility.

P.S. Try aiming for higher CS as the farming carry, as for 50 minutes you had very little net worth.

Hmm, I love vanguard on spec but would never insist anyone on my team builds it unless we're playing all right clickers.

you are asking what the merit of a defensive item is, and then comparing it with the situation in a match where you didn't get punished..

that's like saying" Why is poker gambling if I won this one hand?"

[x] statistically insignificant

it says more about your opponents than how good radiance is.

everyone knows radiance is stronger the earlier you get it without being punished.

why do you think Battlefury Antimage is like the go to build for AM? Burning made it popular a long time ago by showing how successful BF rush could be if he didn't get punished for it.

Vanguard is the worst item in the game, second is rod of atos

Dont buy that

Make heart and eye of scadi and radiance. Surely undead

^ skadi heat radiance travel butterfly manta

undead.

skadi is massively overrated on spectre. in fact heart is the better choice almost always and going both as your first 2/3 core items is most likely not needed

yea i tihnk its better on urn situationally if your team isnt doing well then you just wanna get lifesteal.
spectre's manta and situational diffusal plus most importantly dagger allows her to disengage fights easily and thats where the heart regen kicks in; quite often i would dagger trees etc and urn + heart regen up then fight again with haunt or just enter normally.
moreover you generally jump on supports during the haunt period anyway, skadi's slow is most relevant against bkb'd targets (comparatively since diffusal is fairly common pickup on her)
spectre is also awful at pushing towers and heart fixes that problem.