General DiscussionLost a PA game 38/7/9, I'm lost on ways to actually have won this

You bought a MoM without a BKB against a lion. Also stacking butterfly is not a good idea.

The MoM worked fairly well coz Lion focused on supports to get kills instead of me, and I'd blink and bash him before ult

You could have hit buildings at some point; you only have 1k tower damage. Also MoM is silly with 2 butterflies; you'd be better off selling it and making an HoD. BKB is also a good item.

Amazes me that none of your opponents bought MKB.

You went double butterfly. That is the most stupid thing that could be done, at least enemy team was retarded so none of them got a MKB. But still hex cancels evasion and MoM is just a full waste of an item slot.

Not having a weaver and invoker combine for 3-33-26 might help.

Your jug has two battlefurys and only 4 cs a min.

Your weaver and invoker suck but you guys picked way too many carries. There just will not be enough farm for everyone and you only have like three disables, spirit breaker's charge and ult and whatever disable invoker can through down. Swap jug for like tidehunter and you probably win.

About the double butterfly, at that point I was just lost and since I saw no one thought of MKB I tried to save myself from natures and riki

MoM is my early game build , MoM > Basher , but I just didn't sell it.

Weaver was pretty bad, maxing Q first, and I had to buy 16 sentries just to give to team to actually put them

The other team never made MKBs so stacking butterfly's was fine. MoM is Horrible on PA, DO NOT MAKE IT!!! EVER!! I am not joking it is the worst thing you can get, dagon would be better, an empty inventory slot would be better (unless you never activated it in fights and just used it to farm but there are STILL better items if you are going to do that). If you had a BKB(or even a linken's if you are that desperate for regain) instead of an MoM you would have won.

^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCUvEwN51BQ -->MoM PA winning a losing game

I think satanic would have been better than a second bfly and def bkb instead of MoM

mom is bad on pa even a casual maelstrom would be better. With ur build pudge can just blink on you and kill u solo.

^^ the fact that some good player won a PA game with it in their inventory does not make it any less of a trash item on the hero.

just because the enemies have no true strike doesn't mean getting evasion is the best item. lion has hex to disable it and magic nukes dont give a shit about evasion.

if ur hexed ur 12k on butterfly goes down the drain. if you get hexed with a satanic, the item still provides its 25 str bonus. if satanic prevents you getting killed when you're being chain stunned, then it's infinitely more valuable than a second butterfly.

also mom / butterfly is wasted because you exceed the maximum attack speed.

you hada total of 487 extra attack speed when the cap is at 400. even if there was no attack speed cap, the higher your attack speed, the lower the relative increase to your dps that more attack speed provides, so it's better to have a balance between attack speed and damage

Thanks for the advice guys'

How do you suggest I itemize for games like these ?

Innate agi on PA with 10 levels or stats at 25 = 118.6
blink strike 130
mask 100
two butters 120
mkb 15
Total is 483. I guess my calculations are a little off andros. But either way, without mask up, 383 which is plenty, dropping a butter is 323 which is still plenty for a PA.

And the evasion is somewhat diminishing. One butter is 32.5% chance to be hit or 67.5% evasion. Two butters is 21.125% chance to be hit or 78.875% more. It's only about 10% more of a chance for them to miss you because of how it stacks. Whereas just adding hp at that level will be a ton more effective hp. Like as an example I think you had 1936 hp at level 25 cus you only have the abysal str for hp. Just auto attacks at one butterfly you have effectively 3242 hp. Two knocks that up to 3463. That's hardly noticable increase. But if you instead added 475 hp from satanic with one butter it's effective hp of 4038. You see what I mean? Once you have super high evasion adding more hp is better than adding more evasion.

23 starting agility
25 levels of agility gain @ 3.15 per level = 78.75 = 79
10 stat levels = 20 agility
blink strike 130
2 butters 120
mkb 15
mask 100
23+ 79 + 20 + 130 + 120 + 15 + 100 = 487

Stacking butterfly was good in that match, cause none them bought a mkb. Should have dealtwith and grab a bkb for ezy win.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/895130134

sometimes u just can't win 9vs1

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/863506742

Basically, you shouldn't stack butterflies on most agility carries, because they're still so squishy (especially when the cores buy MKB like they should). Durability from health is very effective (same reason you will always see a Satanic Luna instead of Double Butterfly) for them.

Also, I find stacking attack speed on PA is pretty redundant. Early damage makes her demolish supports and then she can just clean up fights easily.

Your Blur and double Butterfly gave you total of 78,875% dodge chance. But when you consider Blur already gives you 50% that translates to 28,875% dodge from 2 Butterflies. First Butterflies provides 17,5% dodge on top of Blur and when you add second it only gives 11,375%. I know I'm noob and my opinion has prolly no value but I would really consider even buying that first Butterfly on PA as it only gives half of it's original evasion. It's definetly a luxury item you buy if you are 100% sure nobody on enemy team is currently building MKB. Second one is definetly a no no in my eyes. Like earlier said Satanic would have served you better than second Butterfly. And imo you should have kept that BKB.

At that point my choices would have been Satanic, BKB, Abyssal, MKB, PT/BoT and possibly that one Butterfly as it seems enemy was stupid. The moment PA starts to get out of hands their right clickers should have built MKBs.

EDIT: Forgot to say, like Timberwolf said, biggest reason you lost was your Weaver and Invoker feeding half of their kills. Doubt you could have carried them to victory even with suggested items from this thread.

Well tbh rtz had some items to scale with mom man. Basher into abbysal gave him the power to use the mom efficiently if he had no stun he would be an easy target but saying mom is the worst item you can get on pa is actually wrong. Mom is a good item if you know how to get the max benefit from it.

Well if it works for rtz it must work for the rest of us

We already had a discussion on evasion stacking awhile ago. every evasion item is actually expomentially more effective than the one before it. PA has 50% evasion, which eeffectvely doubles her HP. 1st Fly puts her at 67.5%, which is 3.08x EHP. 3rd fly puts her at 78.875% dodge, which is 4.73x EHP. The 2nd fly is almost twice as effective at increasing EHP.

Still should have built a Satanic or another damage item.

holy shit can people not do maths

0% evasion to 35% evasion = 1.53x EHP
50% evasion to 67.5% evasion = 1.53x EHP
67.5% evasion to 78.75% evasion = 1.53x EHP

no matter how much evasion you already have (or don't have, an extra butterfly will always increase your current EHP to physical attacks by 53%.

"Stacking butterfly was good in that match, cause none them bought a mkb."

if an enemy lineup consists of entirely magic damage nukers, then yeah, lets get 3 butterflys because they'll never get MKBs on lion. it's not like physical attacks are the only way to kill someone.

1. hex disables evasion
2. finger of death + pudge combo dont give a shit about evasion too, and that will kill the PA who has 0 HP items and mask of madness

so have a balance of survivability items for all types of damage. if you have bkb, satanic and butterfly, you got bkb + satanic for magical, and butterfly + satanic for physical.

2 butters and a mom, you have survivability vs physical and thats it.

I'd just like to say that against normal people I would've gone for a tankier build, a BKB, and then potentially trade off MoM for satanic.

But I was in this game for 30 minutes and saw that pudge and lion were not interested in getting me with their combo. It was basically a deathmatch so lion/pudge saved their combo for weaver/invo for easy kills

Hence why I didn't see the need for bkb this game, and if you see the replay, I doubt I was hexed even once

So why did you lose then lmao? None of your opponents deal any fucking DPS to you with two butterflies + normal evasion, your DPS would be through the fucking roof as you what, kill anyone in just a few hits and 1 crit easily gets the job done.

Had you sold MoM in favour of Satanic at some point and swapped out one butterfly in favour of a BKB (or even HoT) you would have been able to walk down mid lane and win the game by yourself.

@Androgynous

Stacking butterflies was good in that match, I assume he was invincible to physical dps in that match. He even said he didn't get hexed once. It's a normal skill match so hexing is really rare hence stacking butterflies is always good in a normal skill match. Stacking butterflies along with a bkb would have even better of course.

I think you lost because you didn't kill lion first, I reckon you have have 1 shot kill him then clean the rest up along with your team with those items. So I don't think it was impossible to win with those item choices. Shoud have blink abyssal, crit lion. I bet you also attacked pudge while his blade mail was active.

Actually, I waited out while Pudge had blademail out, but my weaver kept going after pudge during blademail

I tried aiming for lion first, but they had riki smoke and pudge would ult me as a lockdown

Lol use your team mates as a meat sheild.