This isn't true. Dotabuff would still not have access to replays. Without replays much of the site is crippled.
They can continue doing the site as they have been, even with the privacy setting on DOTA. However all the new features they have planned, which you have to pay $6 a month for will be "crippled"
honestly, go look at their sister site www.elobuff.com its the same site, but for LoL. VALVe got pissed because they were going to charge people money for stats. STATS!
No. Valve got pissed because THEY did not think of this idea and dont want someone else making money.
Funny thing is, if valve does now choose to release some kind of pay-for-stats thing they can probably be sued by dotabuff.
I strongly suspect this is part of a wider issue in that dota 2 is really not profitable for valve at all. I very much doubt their sales of cosmetic items were anywhere near what they were hoping for.
I don't think you know anything about suing Mr. Ehtom
If one would sue the very company they'd get their stats from... then... what? How does that even make any sense.
They can do whatever they want since it's valves stats, and making a website like this is also allowed since one can't copyright ideas.
It's not like valve didn't get this idea.
The problem is, stats have a risk of driving noobs away. That's not valve wants because majority of the courier/set buyers are the russian feeders who have lots of money. By putting in the stats they might scare them away thus less sales in the shop.
It is obvious the shop has the highest priority in the game, They are adding new clothings every 2 weeks or so but didn't rework on hero selection screen after 6 months while 75% of the community DON'T LIKE IT.
Obviously, the shop is their only income and that should be prioritized, you're playing a free game afterall.
There is a a whole handful of people working for valve who need to get paid and how does one make money of a completely free game that only costs more money.
ehtom, you just might be the dumbest person I've seen on the internet in like 2 days. Grats!
To be honest, as much as a like all these graphs and everything (they are super interesting), $6 a month is super steep. I realize it's my choice whether or not I want it, but for stats from a public api? DBR is the only thing that dotabuff had going for it (in the unique information sense, the presentation is still good), and even then I think it had its flaws.
Reminds me the situation about the poker sites having their players' hand histories parsed and datamined and shared and/or extracted stats from them on sites like pokertableratings; sites like pokerstars took a lot of time to fix that though. Personally, i feel valve took the right approach from many points of view, there obviously should be an option if a person wants to keep his profile kinda private. So then, the question only is should it be set to off by default? Here, if people are new and don't know about this feature, probably the chances are, they won't play games against somebody who cares about this stuff, and vice versa, if they are competent enough they'll know how to enable this feature, and i personally don't like this idea of making something like this to cost money.
The point is, large sections of the community want things like solo queue with rankings. I really dont care if someone can see all my stats and my rating (1650 atm). Valve has decided that the game will be casual or professional only with absolutely nothing in between.
I like dotabuff and stuff, but I really can understand why Valve dont like that someone's making money from their game with the stats, it would be good for Valve only if DOTABUFF send some %% from money they get by Plus...
even with the respect to Valve that they are making all that possible. I think DOTABUFF is really kinda egoistic in that way.
P.S. sorry for my bad english, but I hope u can get what am sayn.
P.S.S and yes I'm that russian feeder who spend money for dota store.
Valve makes money by bringing millions of new players into Steam through Dota 2.
Everyone knows what steam is already. I would be extremely surprised if they are making any significant profit.
Unfortunately for both of us Valve is not a publicly traded company and so their financial information is completely private so we will never know unless they say.
@ehtom2 hours ago
No. Valve got pissed because THEY did not think of this idea and dont want someone else making money.
Funny thing is, if valve does now choose to release some kind of pay-for-stats thing they can probably be sued by dotabuff.
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Yeah, Valve will get sued for their own game, sureeee........
@Topic
I still believe DBR will work, and it's one of the greatest thing that could ever happen, increasing the game competition, i want to improve my rank.
It's quite standard in business to charge for information and statistics, what's saying Valve would give Dotabuff (or anyone else) this for free? There is no way to go at Valve through legal means on this afaik.
I'm saying if Valve stole dotabuff's idea...
Obviously Valve can do what they like with their own statistics.
DotaBuff just need to decide whether they want to be a part of the Dota community or not.
Valve has created the WebAPI as an avenue for third parties to gathers stats. Cyborg Matt today showed off a quick example of the WebAPI at work.
So it's up to DotaBuff whether they want to make a go of it or not with Dota 2.
In my opinion, it's bizzare for you to pay 6$ a month to see your own stats.I would make that for free, but it'll cost some games to play or something like that.
Some time ago Dotabuff said that every service they would provide is free. Then they started charging for some extra features. I have to agree with Valve that there shouldn't be any 3rd party sites making money with the stats of their own game.
They added the privacy option because Dotabuff was about to start taking money for data they were scraping in an unsupported, unsustainable manner rather than by using an official API. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the site that took money from its users with the full knowledge they would be able to provide that service for just one day before the site would need to be taken down or completely recoded.
Dranzell Valve doesn't care about third parties making money. The issue is that they would like third parties to scrape data in a certain manner. The way DotaBuff were scraping was reverse engineering and not agreeable with Valve.
I also think that Valve doesn't want third parties shaping a rating system for skill level at least not yet. Valve has hinted that it's pretty difficult to give a true representative rating value to a game that is team based. For example your Chaos Knight be really good but your Faceless Void sucks...how does one distinguish skill level of a player when there are over 90 heroes? In certain Chinese and Korean games your skill level is solely determined by the hero you play. So you will have gold standard for one hero and silver or bronze for others. This is probably the best way to give a value to players. Also this doesn't even include people who solo queue or people who stack. People who solo queue will not have similar stats to people who stack so how do you work out player skill then?
Valve has their own MMR but it's flawed and they know this and it shows because the only stats they seem happy to give out is XP/Gold etc.
Take a few minutes and think how do you give out a skill rating when there are over 90 different combination heroes. Any rating you give is arbitrary at best and deeply flawed.
If you're acknowledging it's flawed then DBR is worthless and you should be advocating for both DotaBuff and Valve to do something worthwhile about the gap in player assessment. You shouldn't be angry at Valve and try to call them out.
You can't gauge where you are at with DBR so why I ask do you accept a rating system that you acknowledge is flawed? You should be on Dota Dev trying to get Valve to put their best foot forward for a type of rating system and you should call out DotaBuff for trying to introduce a system which is flawed and they want people to give them money too...?
At the end of the day if DotaBuff ends someone else will fill the void eventually. I've already seen a few people talking about taking up the challenge if DotaBuff are not up to it.
Any rating system is going to be flawed, measuring how good someone is is an extremely difficult task.
The main problem that I have with valve's rating system is that it is completely hidden - we have no idea how it works at all, other than its some elo-based system. They also like tampering with it on a regular basis without telling anyone (in the last month I have won 30 of 100 games... that is fairly statistically significant).
With something like DBR, hopefully at least we can see how it works and it can be improved upon over time.
Frankly I'm pretty sure I could design a better rating system in an afternoon than the one Valve is currently using.
You cant get pay for others jobs... so dotabuff made the mistake releasing the "Premium" section that was an stupid move , you just CANT sell others job it was everything okey till they release that stupid section to make money with others job
What others job? Valve is making money from dota which was a community effort...
But wait, Valve makes money from the shop.
Dotabuff made this website and presented/collated statistics people wanted, if people are willing to pay for that then I dont see a problem.
If anything Valve is the parasite here by completely dictating what a community is/isnt allowed to do with a game that started off as a community effort!
Valve has kept it hidden for good reason. It's not up to par and they don't want to introduce a rating system they are not happy that it does it's intended job.
I believe Valve will eventually do ladders and ranked MM but not unless they are satisfied with where Dota is. So far the community in my opinion has shown itself to be pretty immature and very capable of creating a toxic environment for Dota players and if that continues we may never see these things even if the majority of the community wants it.
It's been said before but StarCraft 2 and HoN had the same issues and there's no turning back when you create and foster that toxic culture.
Valve has to unfortunately treat it's users like kids.
i repeat for those no brain people "YOU CANT MAKE MONEY WITH OTHERS JOBS" Dota doenst Belong to dotabuff So if they want to make money find other way . Dotabuff was taking info from Dota2 to make this website it was cool since they decide to make money from that, it become ilegal
MrAfflluenza thats not posible , dota will be FTP some day ... so everything who now is bad will be worst there will be like in HON Before it was FTP the brackets will be destroyed like in hon .. example
Old 1500 mm in hon Decent people , maybe u get some noob maybe not 1800 bracket was rly good and sklled , and the 2200+ where for rly pro people ... but after the ftp it become like 1800 decent if u were rly lucky and the 1500 bracket become like 400-500 elo bracket... the same will hapend with Dota they are giving away soo many keys and copys of this game ... and now the very high bracket become rly stupid even if u play on it ... there will be some kind of asshole who ruin everything , not by trolling otherwise by lowskill ...
ehtom,
icefrog didnt make a dime coding dota in wc3.
So from ur argument: dotabuff wants to make money by providing stats, from a game that originally came from the community that no one made money from.
And btw, dota 2 is owned by Valve. U can say all u want about how it started from a community of enthusiasts and whatnot, but it is now legally owned by Valve. If dotabuff wanna make money, they can do it from DotA-Allstars from wc3 and I don't think anyone would give a crap.
Peace
vpatrickd - why don't you remove ads from IndoDota.com cause someone sure as hell doesn't appreciate you making money off your ugly ass Dota 2 site. You know you are actually using more proprietary Valve 2 content that DotaBuff ever did? And maybe joinDota should get rid of ads and sponsors too... while we're at it - teams should too, they are making money off of Dota 2.
See what I did there moron!
plain number is shit. but with analysis, they become valuable. there is nothing wrong to charge for statical analysis since it adds value to the numbers.
compared to the people who sell keys on ebay and made an easy buck, dotabuff does deserve some $ reward.
I think dotabuff would still be around if they didn't try to monetize dota's data. They should have just added a few ads to get revenue.
So do you think Dotabuff would get ad revenue in hugs and kisses? It is another monetization model.
Total mess in people heads here.
hugs and kisses? What does that have to do with anything? Plenty of dota websites make money off ads. Valve can't stop that. Dotabuff could have kept the same model they have had forever, ignore adding all this fancy new stuff, and throw up a few ads. Why would Valve care about that?
Why do you think Valve is concerned with Dotabuff's monetization model? They haven't commented on the issue at all, but your speculations don't even make any sense to me.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't believe Valve is concerned with Dota Buff or anyone making money. I believe Valve is concerned about the steps dotabuff was taking with their public data. These steps were allowing Dotabuff to offer a pay service which would allow subscribers to see the data in a more helpful way. I am stating that if Dotabuff didn't take these steps (plus + DBR) and only added some ads to the main page that they might still be around and be making money.
I am probably not understanding you. Are you saying that Valve is against websites that present the data in a helpful way and Dotabuff shouldn't do that? I can understand the debate around DBR but what's wrong with other features? I like seeing popular item builds or graphs. How can this be considered bad?
No one said it's bad. But I am saying that yes, Valve MUST be against websites presenting this data in a helpful way or why would they limit dotabuff (and anyone for that matter) from getting this information easily? Or do you believe this is purely a privacy thing, that they don't care at all about 3rd party websites using their data but they are worried about the privacy of their users? (i think that is a good thing for valve to hide behind, but i bet there is more to it than that).
There is so much conjecture and conspiracy theories about valve in here it's hilarious to read. Thanks for the laugh. It's their stats, they didn't want everyone and their privacy to be violated through data-mining, they did something about it. To the OP, what relevance does your topic that you allegedly started have on beta testing the game? That's primarily what the forums are about, it seems like you posted an inappropriate topic to a forum that is mainly about business.
Why are people suggesting that data-mining from another company's servers is totally okay to do in this thread over and over? I really don't understand that logic.
I think you would be suprised how many websites on the internet are based off of data-mining. Isn't that part of how Google has got so big?
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I just posted a thread saying that if 25% of players opt to have public statistics, sites like dotabuff will have 95% of the matches played. Hence a minority can keep stuff like this running even with valve's current stance.
The thread saying this and only this got deleted within the hour...