General Discussion

General Discussion#1 reason the player base gets so nasty?

#1 reason the player base gets so nasty? in General Discussion
Upgrayedd

    my money is on people not selecting a lane in pick phase. nastiness starts with the small stuff. if you regularly don't select a lane in pick phase you are the #1 reason the player base can be so nasty.

    any other nominations?

    Jacked

      How does showing your lane help if you have Two people fighting over it anyway.

      Upgrayedd

        most of the fights I've seen is because no one picked lane and everyone just assumed that because they picked their favorite mid hero their team would just *know* they were mid

        zFear

          i think the no.1 reason would be just being an angry person in general. perfectly no reason for ppl to get angry most of the time. even in divine 2 games

          Upgrayedd

            "i think the no.1 reason would be just being an angry person in general"

            if this were the case then you would see absolutely no pattern in games that just go to hell. i mean if that were the case then you could be winning 50 to 0 and those people would still be ruining the game. but that just doesn't happen (or it's very very rare). no, there are specific *things* that cause games to go to hell and it's not just "naturally angry people"

            the thing is i can predict with a high degree of accuracy whether or not a game goes to hell. the best predictor I've found is people selecting/not selecting lanes in the pick phase.

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            Rocket

              Games get miserable when you’re losing. Nothing else matters.

              Potato Marshal

                It's a video game with matches lasting on average of 40 minutes, where most things can only be accomplished with teamwork. Can't think of any other gengre that can make people as mad as MOBAs.

                Autumnus

                  ^action rpg, dark souls bloodborne, people rage all the time

                  Potato Marshal

                    Rage from what? You die a few times to a boss or a certain section, then try again, a normal person can beat a boss their first time in less number of tries then it takes to finish 2 dota matches.

                    Feachairu

                      how do you even rage to a boss

                      Autumnus

                        Rage quit many times cuz of nameless king ng+3

                        Autumnus

                          @feachairu whats ur nationality?

                          Upgrayedd

                            "Games get miserable when you’re losing. Nothing else matters. "

                            Nope. Absolutely not. Some of the most fun games I've played were games we've lost. why? because everyone on both sides was playing well and as a team and the opponents managed to edge out a win. Sure, there is probably some correlation between games going to hell and losing, but my experience is that such games are rather rare.

                            My take is that at lower skill brackets losing happens because the game has *already* gone to hell. you're just noticing it because you're losing, but you're actually reversing cause and effect. Your game isn't hell because you're losing, you're losing because your game has gone to hell.

                            No offense but people who think that games go to hell because of losing simply don't get human social dynamics.

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                            Potato Marshal

                              No way can DS3 get you more frustrated than Dota. You barely even lose anything when you die at that point from ng+ onwards.

                              Upgrayedd

                                btw, i'm asking about specific, measurable behaviors that predict games going bad. "angry people" isn't a specific, measurable behavior. Think about the following game i had from a few weeks ago. sniper picks 4th and selects mid lane. terror blade picks 5th and we have no safelane core so we all assume that the guy who last picks and takes a safelane core is going to play that position. Instead, terrorblade starts going mid with sniper and talking smack to him.

                                I let out a string of mockery and insults that might have sounded angry. but i wasn't. I pointed out to him that terrorblade is almost never played mid and that he gets played safe in over 80 pct of games. I was just bullying terrorblade to stop being inconsiderate of his teammates.

                                he ended up acquiescing to go safelane, meaning my bullying and apparently "angry" behavior worked. anyways that's why "angry person" isn't a specific, measurable behavior

                                Google Open AI -, 2.4.72

                                  you asked "any other nominations?" . When people gave their opinion, you replied with a full paragraph about how wrong they are? Thats so idiot.

                                  Upgrayedd

                                    at no point did I say you were wrong. my point is that "angry person" isn't an observable predictor. yes, i agree that "angry person"might be a predictor but it is not readily observable. most "angry people" are just more generally inconsiderate. guess what inconsiderate people do? they don't select lanes in pick phase. so, not selecting a lane in pick phase is a predictor of an "angry person", the difference is that the first is readily observable while the second is not.

                                    i don't know why you took that personally, it was very much not intended as such

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                                    Autumnus

                                      But they get tankier lol, too tiring to keep rolling, why didnt from software design ds3 like bloodborne which have quickstep mechanic similar to the daggers that have quickstep that i used to cheese through farron

                                      Vermillon Qliphoth

                                        bec whats more fun then spending 45min trying your hardest to win game only to play the next game have everyone fight carrys like braindead children and end up losing after 40mins and your back to square one after an hour and a half .

                                        Rocket

                                          You live in cloud cuckoo land. Most of us normal people understand that not selecting a lane isn’t some sort of passive aggressive behavior. Mainly it is grown-ups offering to fill whatever gap in the draft is appearing.

                                          Almost every game starts with at least most of the players positive. It falls apart from projecting stress and frustration onto your teammates because you’re too juvenile to realize that you are as bad as they are and blame your failings on them whilst they blame everything on you.

                                          Autumnus

                                            Lol, whenever i play a game, its usually all about luck, the one who picks a carry first gets to play carry while those who failed to click gets to play supp

                                            Pasi Virhearvio

                                              I once had a guy in my team who apparently wanted to pick Juggernaut, but never mentioned it. Someone banned Juggernaut and he decided to pick Nature's Prophet and feed for the entire game.

                                              Feachairu

                                                i live in indonesia,not from indo descent tho

                                                Upgrayedd

                                                  " Most of us normal people understand that not selecting a lane isn’t some sort of passive aggressive behavior."

                                                  That you have to put words into my mouth indicates you have a poor grasp of things. No, it's not passive aggressive behavior. What it is, however, is rude, thoughtless and inconsiderate behavior - two very different things.

                                                  "Mainly it is grown-ups offering to fill whatever gap in the draft is appearing."

                                                  This is absolutely delusional. One time I decided to see if anyone was paying attention so I spammed "LANES!!!!" in chat a couple dozen times. At the very end of pick phase someone asked "are you having a stroke". No. What's clearly going on is that people don't really care about pick phase, don't give a crap about anyone else in the server and are just waiting for the actual game to start.

                                                  People don't select lanes in pick phase, not because they are passive aggressive, but because they are thoughtless, rude and inconsiderate. Two very different things.

                                                  Rocket

                                                    Think we’ve got another diox/phantom riki on the forum boys!

                                                    Upgrayedd

                                                      "Think we’ve got another diox/phantom riki on the forum boys!"

                                                      This is a dishonest debate tactic called disqualification. You have no response to my position so you just misdirect about .... something

                                                      Geckolimus

                                                        There is certainly some truth to OP’s observation.
                                                        I find it very annoying when I have marked mid since post banning phase and picked my character only to have a team mate asking “who’s mid?” when the battle horns start.

                                                        You KNOW then there is a dumbass in the team and game is likely going to be hard. Toxic levels rise accordingly with such frustrations at least for me anyways.

                                                        Regards
                                                        Gecko

                                                        Upgrayedd

                                                          Gecko is spot on.

                                                          I get teammates who pick a lane then 30 seconds in to the round someone asks who has that lane. even that little thing indicates a lack of consideration for one's teammates. it indicates that person is oblivious and doesn't really care about anyone but themselves

                                                          Valci

                                                            i always ask people to place their figures on the map at hero selection personally...

                                                            ROAD TO HERALD 0

                                                              if this were the case then you would see absolutely no pattern in games that just go to hell.

                                                              You get matched with different people every game unless you play in a 5-stack.

                                                              Ergo, the only consistently observable pattern is from you and you alone.

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                                                              Upgrayedd

                                                                "the only consistently observable pattern is from you and you alone. "

                                                                your understanding of statistics is sub 3rd grade. purely mathematically speaking, this is absolute and utter crap

                                                                Feachairu

                                                                  i'm a bit pissed off currently since i remembered some bad stuff,so i'm gonna be frontal about this

                                                                  hey,i'm good if you see toxic people and you hate about it. but if you are the one who gets toxic just because you met some "dumbass" or guys who made mistakes then you start name-calling/feeling angry,then i'm sorry to say that solo queue is just not for you

                                                                  you better find a 5 man stack and play with your friends instead,how do you even expect your other 4 will actually move/talk/do whatever you wished for? have you ever tried thinking about its the same on the enemy team,so you just need to deal with it?
                                                                  and dealing it by not being the one who's toxic on your team,try CALMING them down when you see the toxicity/rude if you want to win

                                                                  simple words like "hey,it doesn't make you look cool when you say that.just play"
                                                                  "hi this is just a game,let's just have fun can we stop trashtalking to teammates? we won't win this way"
                                                                  "dude can you stop? this is getting annoying,go tt your enemy instead"
                                                                  would really help on most situations

                                                                  you will need to face that there will be alot of mispicks,people who just want to play whatever they want,people who are actually really toxic and all

                                                                  what can we do about this? nothing. so how does solo mmr fun? it is made NOT FUN,how does grinding is fun for you? and when you lose,you need to play the same game 2 times to actually increase your rank
                                                                  where the hell is the fun in that?

                                                                  so how can we win?
                                                                  well,we all know that some friggin 7k booster would probably solo carry everyone on our team,even probably can do 1v9
                                                                  basically just try to improve yourself,stop seeing your friggin teammates and don't start name calling them like some animals or plants

                                                                  sorry if i was rude,not in a good mood

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                                                                  Upgrayedd

                                                                    @ Feachairu

                                                                    I have never reported anyone for having a bad game. Ever. I report people for goofing off and being inconsiderate in how they play the game. What you are doing is changing the subject. This is a very specific subject, which is the proposition that the #1 thing that causes nasty behavior in the community is people not selecting a lane in pick phase.

                                                                    If you say "it's just a game" go play turbo. you are the sort of person for whom turbo was made. turbo is fun. I like turbo. but turbo is the mode where you can just screw around, goof off and very few people will care what you do.

                                                                    it's rude and dishonest to change the subject.

                                                                    Further, when I blame people for mispicking I give them plenty of warning. for example, we had a good team picked all the way through. we had a bb offlane, 2 supports and a wraith king safelane. all 4 players had selected their lanes. drow picks last, proceeds to go offlane, where she is statistically never played, and gets obliterated. this forces bristleback, who is not a mid hero to go mid. during the pick phase and before the game started all 4 other teammates repeatedly told drow to go mid. no answer. she just ignored us.

                                                                    asking a mid hero to go mid and not take the offlane from the offlaner is a reasonable request. if you ignore a reasonable request from your teammates that makes you the primary source of *all* nastiness in the game. deliberately ignoring repeated reasonable requests from your teammates is a completely different thing from having a bad game.

                                                                    again, its' both rude and dishonest of you to change the subject.

                                                                    Upgrayedd

                                                                      @Feachairu

                                                                      People who ignore reasonable requests from teammates are "toxic", such people deserved to be bullied - sometimes bullying is a good thing. the people who chew such people out are *not* "toxic"

                                                                      (btw, I put the term "toxic" in quotes because it is used to cover such a vast array of things that it is pretty much meaningless.)

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                                                                      Upgrayedd

                                                                        "you better find a 5 man stack and play with your friends instead,"

                                                                        This is an extremely unhelpful and impractical piece of advice. very very few people have the resources and time to put together a regular 5 man queue.

                                                                        "how do you even expect your other 4 will actually move/talk/do whatever you wished for?"

                                                                        because that is what reasonable and considerate people do in social situations. whenever anyone has a reasonable request for me I happily comply, happens rather often.

                                                                        Pilot

                                                                          It's pride and ego.

                                                                          People get mad when things don't go their way. Sure, you pick a lane, but what happens when another player disregards common courtesy and takes it from you?

                                                                          A lot of things in this game boils down to that. And when that happens, don't mind it. Just play your best game.

                                                                          Upgrayedd

                                                                            look, that's fine. I don't mind moving around and working with people. but you gotta friggin ask. so much of the dota player base is ridiculously asocial. if someone, even a complete stranger, asks me to do something that is even remotely reasonable I generally do it.

                                                                            Yes, the issue is pride and ego

                                                                            "A lot of things in this game boils down to that. And when that happens, don't mind it. Just play your best game."

                                                                            I have extremely high psychological empathy. I am simply unable to do this because that's what empathy does to the human brain

                                                                            Pilot

                                                                              That's my advice for most people because most people don't do what I do in game.

                                                                              If you're able to do it, encourage your team. Try and keep them sane amidst the toxicity. But this method is way more taxing than what a normal game should be. (which is also why I rarely play solo)

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                                                                              Cashmere

                                                                                Extremely High Dota 2 Psychology

                                                                                xDeprived

                                                                                  Grand Pa Thad has an extremely legit and valid point. I completely agree in this post.

                                                                                  D!tto

                                                                                    Oh man! And you probably havent even played in Peru. I stopped queueing that server because is so toxic. People start flaming from the get go, they call gg when something doesnt goes as they ideally wanted, even if youre winning. And they always blame someone else for their mistakes, once i saw someone that was ganked and started complaining about "no wards" and there wer FOUR wards in the jungle that revealed how the entire gank was made. This is a true story.

                                                                                    My advice, and this is what i follow because I love the game and I know I wont enjoy it if I start to worry too much, is:
                                                                                    Try to play with friends whenever you want
                                                                                    Ignore stupid flaming players
                                                                                    Always play at your best and forget the flamers (truth is, is very unlikely youll see them again)
                                                                                    Dont report people for playing bad (unless intentionally) or else they wont learn, save your report for flamers, they are the ones that deserve low priority.

                                                                                    Trust me, ive never been in low, and to my aware never been reported, i always try to play good and dont answer back to flamers, because these guys always try to blame someone for their mistakes and the one that first replies to them is the one they will focus all they hatred and they might report you unjustifiedly.

                                                                                    truth is, bad people that cant admit they suck and for that they choose to blame others, thats the real reason for nastiness in games

                                                                                    Upgrayedd

                                                                                      "If you're able to do it, encourage your team. "

                                                                                      This is wasted on a large portion of the player base. A player who doesn't give a crap about the people they are playing with isn't going to respond to encouragement.

                                                                                      "Try and keep them sane amidst the toxicity."

                                                                                      the term "toxicity" is used to refer to so much unrelated stuff that it's meaningless, pure babble

                                                                                      Upgrayedd

                                                                                        "save your report for flamers, they are the ones that deserve low priority."

                                                                                        no. absolutely no. way to miss the point. people who don't select lane in pick phase *DESERVE* to be flamed. such people *DESERVE* to be in LPQ.

                                                                                        some bullying is warranted and deserved.

                                                                                        Upgrayedd

                                                                                          Just finished a game where we had the following picks:

                                                                                          A) shadow shaman
                                                                                          B) abaddon
                                                                                          C) QoP

                                                                                          We have positions 2,3 and 5. What do the last two players pick? Bristleback and weaver. Both players were repeatedly specifically asked to pick a legit late game carry and simply ignored their team. We had a substantial lead in terms of towers until around the 35th minute. Then the late game carries on the other team came online and we just got flattened.

                                                                                          the first three players all reported bb and weaver for their picks. and deservedly so

                                                                                          ROAD TO HERALD 0

                                                                                            your understanding of statistics is sub 3rd grade. purely mathematically speaking, this is absolute and utter crap

                                                                                            Do enlighten me, O' wise grandpa.

                                                                                            Upgrayedd

                                                                                              if you have a statistically valid sample then the correlations are valid predictors. really simple stuff. now, you may not think it's important but the predictor is the predictor. the *type* of person who doesn't select lane in pick phase tends to have a significantly more unpleasant and asocial/antisocial personality than the *type* of person who does select a lane in the pick phase.

                                                                                              it's a correlation. doesn't mean every person who picks is more pleasant than every person who doesn't pick

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                                                                                              LittleFingers

                                                                                                You need to be a psycopath to play ranked without getting tilted at all.

                                                                                                Upgrayedd

                                                                                                  "You need to be a psycopath to play ranked without getting tilted at all."

                                                                                                  the notion that psychopaths are stone cold and emotionless is completely false.

                                                                                                  ROAD TO HERALD 0

                                                                                                    Sure, repeat your hypothesis as if it's already a proven fact. I recommend you join reddit, you will find more love there than from any human being in your life.

                                                                                                    You talk about a "sample" and "validity" as if the players you encounter in your games are statistically representative of the entire population (all dota 2 players).

                                                                                                    The obvious fact is that:

                                                                                                    1. the players you call your "sample" are non-randomly selected, i.e you intentionally chose these players and made them your "proof that players who dont choose a lane pre-game are more likely to be nasty"

                                                                                                    2. You have not defined any quantifiable parameters for what constitutes the "player base" (the population)

                                                                                                    meaning that any inference drawn from this "sample" about the dota 2 player base (the population) is questionable at best, because you have not proven how your so-called "sample" has a high degree of correlation with the population, therefore your hypothesis might be not false when applied to the specific group of players you have singled out, but is certainly false when applied to all the other games played by the population.

                                                                                                    Also, correlation does not imply causation.

                                                                                                    For example, I could hypothesize that you are a pompous fart who only agrees with others that share his flatulent opinions because you are shunted by your schoolmates, when the factor with more statistical significance (taking into account the population of pompous farts) is actually your parents abusing you.

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                                                                                                    Feachairu

                                                                                                      @grandpa
                                                                                                      before i say anything lots,sorry. i agree i was rude
                                                                                                      post wasn't really directed to you,more like all dota2 solo queue players who play like 200+ games of it and still can't face the reality

                                                                                                      about reporting,i'm fine with what you said that stuff is made that way

                                                                                                      the one about "it's just a game",i was telling about where you need to calm them down if you want to win.not about we should not take it srsly because it's just a game or letting the game go

                                                                                                      on picking,i think i have my point already

                                                                                                      i dun see a real improvement if you're bullying someone at mid game or early game or something,what's the use of tt ing on your teammates? why can't just try the game lol,it's not like it's 0% chance of winning. tt ing will just make team morale down and everyone is gonna busy chatting rather than farming/lasthitting/actually doing stuff at the map

                                                                                                      on "other 4",i guess most of dota players just not "reasonable and considerate" people(look,most of them are kids or young adults
                                                                                                      i think). according to all the experiences we all been thru
                                                                                                      so in the end,nothing we can do about it lol need to find another way

                                                                                                      ruining your own game by typing alot just because someone is doing stupid things is just same like running from your problems
                                                                                                      you need to win,but you see a not cooperative person, you just gave up on playing 100% and waste your time bullying the guy by typing all game.

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                                                                                                      Väinämöinen

                                                                                                        LUL i ragequit to bell tower gargoyls, i actually broke the CD in half. tried the bosses about 38 times (about a week?)

                                                                                                        didnt know that there is coop.