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Rage thread in General Discussion
Filthy

    Lost 350 mmr mostly due to shit internet I thought I could manage with the half second delay but I guess not I am paying 100 dollars a month for best Internet in town however I am stationed in a shit hole that has shitty ass Internet and has one company with a monopoly on it , can't wait to finally leave this shit hole in the middle of no where in 15 months.

    Relentless

      When you have an experience like this it becomes very clear how tightly MMR is tied to reaction speed.

      Many excellent players are unaware of how slowly ordinary players are able to see, think, and act. There is often a misunderstanding that players at higher MMR automatically understand the game and those at lower MMR or even just someone making a mistake in your game is "stupid".

      In reality the game is won and lost almost entirely by mechanical skills when players have similar experience levels (ie everyone has played over 1000 games). So the higher you go in MMR the game gets faster but remains basically the same game. Recently some people noticed that 1k MMR players were using a blink build for meepo and were amazed. But reality is even the lowest MMR players try to copy whatever pros are doing, just like those at the top MMR levels. Lower MMR players are just slower and clusmier, failing to execute the same things more often than not.

      When you get a lot of lag, or play on a server halfway around the world you can get a sense of what it's like for ordinary players. The differnce is their delay is inside their nevous system instead of their equipment.

      Because of what can and cannot be done at different speeds, the meta game changes. At very low MMR tp scrolls and dust are not used for instance. This is actually NOT entirely due to ignorance, although in part the lowest MMR levels truly have nubs that don't know to use them. Instead its a problem with the speed of execution.

      When a player requires 2 or even 3 seconds, as 1k MMR players do to notice a hero has gone invis and click dust and then try to cast... using dust becomes impractical. When very slow people do try to use dust, they miss or just barely hit and its too late to do anything. So using dust is a failure and this leads to them not using dust in the future.

      Because dust has very low untility (people are too slow to use it) invis heroes dominate the meta game.

      Similarly when a player that does not have the ability to watch the mini-map closely enough to see a hero go past a ward and TP in response - TP scrolls and wards become useless. Those who can use them, notice at some point when they try that it helps them. But everyone else also experiences games when they had a TP and wards were up... but since they are so slow they do not notice it helping and therefore do not change their practice of not using these items.

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      Trodlabundin

        ^While this isn't spot on, it's definetly has a rather significant part.

        I've been smurfing lately and it feels like people has brain delay and no awareness of what's going on. (As of when people gets silenced, switching heroes, stunning right heroes, stunning when you should, not walk in circles and do it 6 seconds later, etc.etc.)

        Monkeh

          My brain has a significant delay. I know this and play very defensively because of it. I still end up feeding almost every game. Occasionally I do things right but it normally requires me to plan ahead which buttons to press in what order before I go anywhere near enemy heroes.

          I have terrible map awareness and terrible game sense, although these are improving. I also play late at night whilst drunk quite a lot.

          Luckily I don't really care about my MMR. Just as well really. I still try to win. I do a lot of trying.

          Relentless

            I've seen countless example of these things when I watch replays of pub dota games. As C9 mentions... the ever popular, run in circles during a teamfight... what are those people doing?

            Well if you watch a replay so you can see their point of view at 0.25 speed it may become clear.

            I often see low MMR carry players fail to do any damage in a fight because they make so many misclicks. This effect is applified when they attempt to use "pro" tactics. I will see a sniper with MJ, Bfly, Deadlus, do zero dmg during a 10 sec bkb charge. He pops bkb and then starts attempting to attack-walk at his first target. But because he miss-clicks the attack 75% of the time and miss times the click 75% of the time he actually never completes a single attack animation and eventually dies at the end of the fight having done literally ZERO dmg to anyone. The last 3 or 4 seconds of his bkb he spent trying to walk back out when he realized his team was losing the fight.

            Now if a low skill Sniper player realizes that he is very slow and cannot do attack walks, he could simply hit bkb and then let his hero autoattack for a much better result. Your tactics on a hero much match your skill level. If you can't blink-hex before someone stuns you... then getting blink on lion or shadow shaman is going to do nothing for you.

            Higher skill players make the same KIND of errors to a lesser degree. You may think you played a fight well, but watching your replay may reveal that you canceled your attack animation too early 2 out of 10 attacks in a close fight... and lost as a result. All blinks are particularly touchy. If you blink just slightly out of range of a skill and have to walk forward or turn, it can easily delay your cast long enough that an enemy can blink away or counter stun, or pop bkb.

            These slight miss-plays are the reason players end up winning and losing MMR over the long term. The more accurate, faster players gravitate to higher and higher MMR over time simply because all the important fights, the close calls are decided by mechanical speed and accuracy and that is who wins the game.

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            Filthy

              Eh It sucks Cuz I click a spell like pounce or somthing and I am literally watching my hero for a bit before he pounces and starts a chain reaction of shitty shit happening . Makes me angry Cuz I have the best internet money can buy in my shitty area and it still sucks been even having proble watching Netflix lately

              Metallicize

                @relentless i don't know dude all this "missclick" theory seems pretty surreal.
                people at lower mmr don't attempt to attack walk, because they don't know what it would help them with, and they just click the enemy hero once and watch their hero attack.

                you just gotta keep a "cool head" in the middle of the fight, and this is why a lot of people struggle to get better, cuz when they are about to die they drop all the echoslams, ravages and everything they can, they tunnellvision and just focus the wrong target.

                Metallicize

                  concentration =/= speed and reaction

                  Dire Wolf

                    what area? ISPs are a huge ripoff, so much monopoly everywhere in the US. I'm "fortunate" to have comcast which means generally good service and fast but it's expensive. It doesnt' make sense to me that internet alone should cost over $50 a month.

                    Trodlabundin

                      It's true that lower players makes more misclicks and execute their spells/attacks/fights worse, and has slower reaction time, and can't read a situation correctly, but the way you stated your last post is not a reason or for winning mmr over time.

                      By your theory/shit, you just said if you play and play you'll eventually be the best player in the world.

                      Metallicize

                        i know some people who are supreme shit global underrank (or whatever) in csgo (mostly meaning good reaction and little missclicks) and are between 2k and 4k.
                        i agree a lot on the "can't read a situation correctly" and you can't improve unless you know where to improve, playing 5000 games can still keep you at 3k mmr

                        Trodlabundin

                          Sonic who has 12k games (?), also think he changed his name, has 4,5k last time I played with him. ~3months ago.

                          Reason I know him is cause I had issues with my hands and added him due to his high amount of games, and he had no issues with his hands even after all those games, which sounds ridiculous to me. Maybe the account is being used by several people lols.

                          Metallicize

                            i think i played with or against him, not sure, but im pretty sure he didn't play like he had 12k games Rofl

                            Vaikiss`742.

                              do u have pain in ur hands after excesive playing ?

                              Filthy

                                On a base on border of Oklahoma and Texas other places in Texas near decent cities have a lot better internet , nearest decnet sized city is Dallas 2.5 hours south of here , I looked and I can get double the speed for 30 bucks there , thing is I not even getting what they saying I payed for I call and not bitch them out but nothing else I can do besides shitting off the internet .

                                Mokujin

                                  Don't you have things like separate consumer protection laws to protect clients and shit?
                                  We have one in Russia and it's almost universal (as in it can be applied to nearly every paid service)

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                                  Mokujin

                                    Can you post a speedtest of your connection, OP?

                                    قصص إختك

                                      Inb4 Relentless theory crafting

                                      Dire Wolf

                                        not really, unless you want to start some huge class action lawsuit, but all the telecoms advertise internet with huge disclaimers that say in small print speeds up to X mbps. Hopefully sattelite and cell tech start getting better and can compete with cable.

                                        Cell phones were kind of the same way for a while too, charge huge amounts for minutes then one company offered unlimited and viola all the other companys start changing their offerings. Then everyone starts bitching about how little data they get and viola, family pricing introduced. There is limited competition in cellular but it's better than it was, still not great though.

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                                        Relentless

                                          No, C9 you completely misunderstood what I wrote. Practicing will not improve people's ability to quickly and accurately execute dota moves indefinitely. In fact those who have played dota for only a few hundred games will already be near their maximum ability in this area.

                                          Practicing the specific moves on an individual hero can take you up a little bit more, perhaps a 500 to 1000 MMR gain. This is why spamming a hero is the best way to climb MMR. But ultimately you cannot practice your way into being much faster than you are. No matter how hard you try, you will reach a ceiling on your MMR where you will fail not from strategy, item choices, lanes, hero picks, nub team... etc. No you will ultimately fail to climb more because you are too slow and ppl are higher MMR are faster. This is how it is for everyone from the top to the bottom.

                                          No one plays a hero to the true limit of its power, but the pros get close.

                                          -----------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Also C9 you are having trouble with your hands because of your chair. Get a proper chair and it will dramatically improve. Your poor posture is improperly supporting your spine and putting pressure on your nerves.

                                          ---------------------------------------------------------------

                                          People do mis-click a huge amount a lower MMRs. I have counted as many as 70 miss-clicks per minute on the worst players. I'm not kidding, there are ppl who try to click to do something like attack a creep and accidentally click on the ground 5 or 6 times before getting it. I have watched people play who STRUGGLE to buy items at the shop, because they can't click on them. And these ppl still try to play dota... people truly BAD at clicking don't play computer games at all. My grandfather has diabetes and significant nerve damage. He was really into computers 30 years ago, but now he can't click a mouse on anything at all even if he takes a full minute. He can only just barely use a touch screen. Low MMR players try to do all the same things pros do. They just fail at them badly, and because they fail so completely on certain tactics they give up those tactics quickly.

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                                          Bad Intentions

                                            ^mannn relentless u shud start a coaching thread mann i like your stuffs, good info man!

                                            outerspaceboys

                                              That first comment sounds just like me Relentless... XD

                                              Welt aus Eis

                                                "When you have an experience like this it becomes very clear how tightly MMR is tied to reaction speed."

                                                no its not

                                                Welt aus Eis

                                                  maybe at a top level yeah, but you can easily be 5k with average reaction speed

                                                  ShiftingSkys

                                                    Part of the reason they have such a terrible time trying to click is that they dont get proper gaming mouses and do not bother adjusting the settings perfectly, I got one of those weighted mouses and played with it for over 10 games before I got the weight perfect. Even with it set up perfectly I O cassionally do fuck up something like a Rift stun or a Blink, Atos, Last word, while they have creeps near them, Ill misclick 1 of the 3 ocassionally and just call of the gank if i miss the Atos.

                                                    Anyway I do agree to some extent faster players gain MMR, I have a friend who loves playing Rubick,Skywrath, Silencer and many others that reaction time is Key. I cant tell you how many Magnus''s hes fucked with Skywrath.

                                                    Filthy

                                                      my ping and stuff isn't bad ... the thing is its running smooth and lag free except for every 10 seconds or so I get 1 second delay, then back to fast, so basically I go along doing good then bam mis last hit or bam fuck up a spell in crucial teamfight. it is playable since It isn't constant but it def is enough to cause me to lose . basically 1 out of every 10 seconds is paused for me.

                                                      Filthy

                                                        I got a new neighbor next to me that never leaves his apartment except for work and is a single pilot. my theory is he is fucking up my internet clogging up the cable lol.

                                                        Filthy

                                                          Suppose Ill quit ranked for ahhile ive dropped from 3.5k to 3131

                                                          Relentless

                                                            Sano is suffering from dunning kruger syndrome. Because he is an extremely fast player he has no perspective on what "average" is like, and how very far above average he is. Because it is so far from his personal experience he cannot understand ordinary experience.

                                                            5k MMR is the top 0.1% of players. They (and you) are not average, they are exceptional.

                                                            Sano average people can't even see what you do, much less try to react or copy it. You play the game in small factions of a second, but they don't even see tiny fractions of a second. It's not a normal thing to be able to perceive and act in small fractions of a second.
                                                            http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

                                                            Average time just to see a change and click (with no thought or positioning at all) is 268 ms. But since dota requires more than simply clicking ASAP when you see a huge obvious change of the whole screen color it takes much longer for average people to do anything.
                                                            However, excellent players can perceive and act much faster.

                                                            If you take an action that requires less than 0.250 seconds, an average player can't even see it happen before it is done. They have no chance of competing at all against those who can see things and react in 0.100 seconds. This website tosses out speeds faster than 0.100 seconds because they are assumed to be errors... but in real competition TI level dota players do react in as little as 0.050 seconds. I've even seen a manta style dodge of RP by Korok and that has 0.010 second window to dodge.

                                                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGl8ocDWggM
                                                            The fastest quick draw artist can draw, aim, and fire a real hand gun in about 0.020 seconds.

                                                            People at 5k MMR are not "average". People at 2.2k MMR are average.

                                                            Now you can max out your MMR taking advantage of all the knowledge, experience, and tryhard that you like and move up, perhaps a standard deviation or two above your reaction speed. But it will ultimately determine how fast a game you can play and for nearly everyone they will never reach 5k MMR (a top 0.1% score).

                                                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                            This is fundamentally why connect speed matters, and why pro dota tournaments have to be played on LAN. A higher ping (say 150 ping) turns a guy with 0.150 super fast reaction time into a slowmo 0.300 reaction time player.

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                                                            Welt aus Eis

                                                              you're misunderstanding my post. I'm pretty aware that my reactions and skill are way above the average player. what I'm saying is that being 5k doesn't require amazing reactions. you can get there with decision making and game sense.

                                                              Relentless

                                                                I'm sorry to misconstrue what you were saying. But I still disagree. I do not believe ordinary players can reach 5k MMR, or even 4k MMR.

                                                                I think the evidence that reveals when a significant departure from average reaction times becomes relevant is the use of blink daggers. I've done a lot of moving between Normal and High skill over the past year because my connection speed was crap, then was fixed, then died, then was fixed again.

                                                                I noticed that as you get closer and closer to 4k MMR blink daggers become more and more important. At 3k MMR ppl can often get by with shadow blades instead of blinks. At 4k, if you don't have a blink disable late game you probably can't disable a carry before he can pop bkb.

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                                                                Trodlabundin

                                                                  Do you have a suggestion for a chair? I've heard a lot of people talk about arm-rests on chairs (which I've taken off, who/how use these?

                                                                  Coolie

                                                                    i play with 200 ping to my native server im sure u guys r just bad

                                                                    Welt aus Eis

                                                                      my point is that if you have a weakness in your gameplay you can compensate it by being very good at other stuff

                                                                      if your reactions are slow you can compensate by spamming faceroll heroes (for example, lesh is much more straightforward and overall easy to play than storm or ember). you can also play roamers like bounty hunter - a hero that doesnt require fast clicking or high APM, but pretty much only game sense. or you can also play a 5 position support that doesnt require a lot of fast casting such as CM.

                                                                      Trodlabundin

                                                                        House of Balloons why are u turning expose match data of and on? ^_^ Your friends aint

                                                                        casual gamer

                                                                          its a little easier to dodge shit with manta than you make it sound

                                                                          if slardar blinks on me and crushes my reaction (if i react in time, way more likely in a fight than if im farming a camp and he blinks from fog) to hit alt+w usually occurs around the same time he is nearly done with his animation

                                                                          its also a lot easier to remember that one time that you dodged laguna with fire remnant, etc. than the 10 times you died because you blinked straight back rather than into trees or some shit

                                                                          Welt aus Eis

                                                                            on the other hand, there are many people that don't have that good of a game sense but compensate by excelling at high mechanical skill rewarding heroes such as meepo, ember or storm

                                                                            Coolie

                                                                              i dont actually haha XD

                                                                              Relentless

                                                                                http://heavy.com/games/2015/01/top-5-best-gaming-chairs-for-pc-gamers-reviews/

                                                                                I don't have a particular preference myself, but the big engineering and software design companies I've worked for always provide such chairs for people who work all day, everyday at a computer. Ergonomic keyboards and mice are nice too, but maybe less important in my opinion. I've seen people I know personally get a lot of improvement from the right chair.

                                                                                Coolie

                                                                                  european gooks

                                                                                  casual gamer

                                                                                    also with shit like ur dust u gotta realize a lot of the time what looks like rly fast reactions is just anticipation

                                                                                    even if ur playing dota with 1 hand or some shit, you can still dust early

                                                                                    even an 80 yr old man can fiends grip an axe trying blink call if he has prior vision, he just has to cast the skill before axe blinks

                                                                                    yiran

                                                                                      I disagree with Relentless. My first experience with Dota 2 is watching a bit of TI3 and I have played since then. I calibrated at 2.9k and hovered there, up to max 3.3k, until I was 3.1k at 6.82. Then I decided to play better and use my accumulated knowledge more efficiently, try to find every mistake I did in a losing game (cause I'll never be perfect), pick less bad/countered heroes, so on and so forth. And guess what, I'm now 50mmr to 4k.

                                                                                      Either that or USE is completely shit compared to to China. Which is possible.

                                                                                      Relentless

                                                                                        I think there is a fairly straight forward way to tell if you can perceive and act on 0.200 sec timescale. Use Ember Spirit Sleight of fist and Searing Chains combo on a creep wave to practice and try to grab two specific creeps. Each jump takes 0.200 seconds. If you grab the wrong two creeps you missed it.

                                                                                        I can get it about 10% of the time, and I thinks that's just luck. I can't practice to get better because the 1 out of ten times that I got it right I really have no sense, no feel, no perception of doing anything differently than the 9 out of ten times I missed.

                                                                                        --------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                        Yiran I'm not saying that people can't improve. Just that there are limits. The average dota player does not start at 2.9k however.. they start below 2k. 2.2k is average. The fact that you started at 2.9k means you were already much faster than average when you were new.

                                                                                        Some 80yr olds, could stop a blink call.. but most could not. Really most 20 yr olds can't do that. Age does slow reactions, but not by that much. That world champion quick draw artist with 0.02 sec timing, is almost 50 and remains as fast as he was when he was young.

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                                                                                        yiran

                                                                                          Relentless, what about yourself? You seem around ~3.3k. Do you think your mechanical skill is your limitation to improving? You seem to have extensive game knowledge already.

                                                                                          Relentless

                                                                                            At this point I have played about 8,000 games of Dota 1 and Dota 2. I don't think my mechanical skills have improved significantly since the first 1000 games of dota 1 which would be 6 years ago.

                                                                                            I have been as high as 4k MMR and I am currently at 3.2k solo and 3.5k party. If I wanted to max out I would have to play only my very best heroes which have 70% + winrates. I could probably get back up close to 4k doing that but I would run into the same problem that I did in Dota 1 on the Tier 2 leagues of Dotacash and ThroneiT. When I get to a score that corresponds to about the top 2% of players I find I am too much slower than opponents to go higher. When I watch my replays I find that I did not lose because of choices, but rather because of tiny missed executions. I got stunned first. I cast a heal 0.2 seconds late. I clicked to blink away mid cast, but slightly to late... etc. I watch my replays to see why I won or lost and figure out what could be done better. But at max MMR there really is nothing else I could do, because what I should do is "git gud" and that's just not possible.

                                                                                            I can beat 5k to 6k supports in ward/deward battles with better timing and placement by thinking of options they have not considered... but I will always lose to them when we walk out of fog and try to cast a disable or when I blink on them and find they can still stun me first. I can't play mid at that level because I will always lose the cs, and if I focus on it enough to make it close I will lose all map awareness trying to do it. I can't play carry at that level because I will not lasthit well enough and my items will be a couple minutes later than a 5k carry player. Also I will fail to pop bkb in time when blink-disables are attempted on me, while a 5k player might get bkb off in time and win a critical fight.

                                                                                            This is why I can play a hero like Tree or Lich and support pro level players well enough, not anything special but I can make it work. It's because these heroes require almost no split second timing at all to play. So I have a handful games on these heroes where I have won games where the average MMR was near 6k. But its mostly because I did not feed and other people were amazing. I could never earn that MMR myself.

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                                                                                            Rocket

                                                                                              apart from the fact that reactions slow very slowly with age (gaming communities are really ageist - the reason there are no old professional players is because they have generally have other things that take priority) relentless' fixation on reaction speed is wrong - it is of course important and lag (whether through the internet or in your brain) does play a part in your performance but i don't think anyone would argue that a pubstar could dominate to at least 4k on any server whilst staying at home. draft,build,strategy etc. are much more important than reaction speed. from the dust example, it is more important to have bought it regularly than to activate it 100ms faster.

                                                                                              the reason invisibility rules at low MMR is because cores think dust is something that supports should buy.

                                                                                              lm ao

                                                                                                I dont believe this shit, I have a neighbor here who plays on USW with 200ms latency and does the easiest stomping of his life since humans started stomping grapes to make wine. OR MB USW players are so shit to average 3K SEA

                                                                                                Metallicize

                                                                                                  @relentless http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1764841914
                                                                                                  check out this game, void never hit me with chrono - dodged it at least 3-4 times, and not because of reaction.
                                                                                                  if you would check out the replay actually you can see how bad i am (keepo) and how i just anticipate his chrono.

                                                                                                  Coolie

                                                                                                    Yeah usw is a weak server for sure

                                                                                                    Relentless

                                                                                                      First instance.
                                                                                                      Void timewalks at 24:35.46
                                                                                                      Storm ball lightening at 24:35.89
                                                                                                      Void casts Chrono at 24:35.96

                                                                                                      You were already preparing to dodge the chrono because Void was visible moving into position to do the timewalk. Despite this you took 0.43 seconds to click to escape. As you said that's not especially fast. Void was especially careless in his attack.

                                                                                                      31:18.44
                                                                                                      You did no actions to avoid chrono, Void just choose not to place it on razor, or failed to place it on you. Really I think he just clicked it as fast as he could since he centers it on himself.

                                                                                                      38:37.57 Void Time Walks into the fight, you clearly did not notice yet because you click to walk forward two more times into the chrono area.
                                                                                                      38:38.44 Void casts Chrono You still click once to walk into chrono after it has appeared
                                                                                                      38:38:60 You move the mouse away from Chrono to avoid walking in. This is truly the reaction time 0.160 seconds, vastly above average, but too slow to go pro.
                                                                                                      38:38:67 You complete the back click so total time to react is 0.167 after you notice... noticing chrono was hard in that chaos, but you did fail to notice void for about a full second.

                                                                                                      Then you missclick your jump and end up trapped in Chrono anyway at 38:40.58. It's important to realize the people do more and more missclicks the faster they try to play. Few missclicks are made when playing well within your speed capabilities.

                                                                                                      40:32.93 Void actually casts Chrono at the same time that you land outside the area having already dodged so... he missed as much as it was a dodge. He could have cast it for about 2 seconds and hit you and two other targets. I think he failed to realize the cd had come up. Your interpretation of this as an anticipation rather than as a reaction is questionable since Void was capable of casting on you for two seconds before he tried. I say this is a reaction. But I can't decide on when you realized he was about to cast it so I can't put a time to it.

                                                                                                      44:29:90 Void Time walks, you can see him walking up and timewalking.
                                                                                                      44:30:10 Void arrives from his Time Walk
                                                                                                      44:30:80 Void cast Chrono and just missed you because he didn't place it quite right. He took 0.7 seconds to cast, but still did not place it well enough.
                                                                                                      44:30:84 You jump up the hill possibly attempting to dodge chrono, you were 0.04 s too late for that but since he missed its irrelevant.

                                                                                                      You can see from the details of the mechanics that a player who could react and jump out of the way in 0.2 seconds would always be able to avoid this guys chromos... really 0.4 seconds would dodge most of them and 0.6 would have dodged that last one. He did not play void very well.

                                                                                                      Although you did anticipate Voids moves in at least one instance, the details of the mechanics make it clear that reaction speed could have made you, or a player better than you completely beyond this guys ability to hit a chronosphere. A fast storm player would have to be pre-stunned or silenced or this Void could never hit him.

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                                                                                                      Crudude

                                                                                                        PUTTING IT DOWN TO REACTION SPEED

                                                                                                        Do you think ping has anything to do with it? I play with 400 ping on EU and 100 ping on SA and when people have 20 ping they probably think their reaction speed is a lot faster meanwhile that ping is probably making a huge difference too.

                                                                                                        Also reaction speed isn't the only talent in dota I think (when everyone has played a lot), there is a lot of talent in tactical thinking in what to do in certain situations etc. (both very fast reaction thinking/adapting and also slower game tactical thinking)

                                                                                                        Also I think someone with 1000 games is still a lot noobier in their knowledge of the game to a guy at 3000 games unless that person has made a huge attempt to learn new things all the time etc and try out these new things and get comfortable with them, but some of us play for fun and don't get too serious about researching or whatever.

                                                                                                        For instance I have played 1400 games and don't know how to micro manage. I could probably get good at it if I did it for a week but I CBA. But when I get to 3000 games it will probably become a very necessary skill to win games and as I like to win I will have to make myself learn it.

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